Who do I want to be: Intellectually and Morally Stagnant, or Virtuous?
Someone asked me awhile back, “Who do you want to be?”
I responded, “Problem is, I'm battling that right now. I'm thinking of leaving a lot of what I held true behind me. This is my own issue, and personal struggle. The details of this struggle would fill a book, but the twitter version I guess would be, "Who is in control? God or me? I'd like to love the simple pleasures in life, and not be tied down to the future so much. Travel, enjoying just the moment with no destination in mind, just life in general. I've been that person, and want to be that guy.
During my trip to China in December of 2009, I read 3 chapters W. Jay Wood’s book Epistemology: Becoming Intellectually Virtuous (Contours of Christian Philosophy)
These 3 chapters when really studied did more for my clarity of thinking than any book I’ve ever read.
Jay Wood on C.S. Lewis…Hideous Strength
“…His consuming desire to be accepted by others, to feel a part of the inner ring, the power elite, eventually leads him to his relationship with his wife and—most relevant to our discussion—his ability to think straight.”
The last 6 months I’ve been battling hard questions. “What if I remain Christian just to be accepted?”
It’s hard to think straight when our paradigm is challenged.
“If I reject Christianity, will this negatively affect my relationships?”
Christians are called to the Buddhist idea of “dissolution of the self”. Our bodies, our flesh are evil; the only good comes from the spiritual. We are called to hate evil. (Amos 5:15)
“If nothing we do apart from Christ is evil; what is this ‘self?’”
These questions have plagued me in the last six months, making me depressed. How can I reconcile my serious doubts, with criticisms coming from the Christian community saying I’m “selfish” and just wanting to follow my “fleshly desires?”
The Saint Thomas Aquinas (born ca. 1225; died
7 March 1274) writes, “Happiness is secured through virtue; it is a good attained by man's own will.” “The good of the intellect is truth, and falsehood is its evil.”
But opinion and suspicion can be about both truth and falsehood. So I had to weigh my opinions with what I really know. Truth is I wasn’t sure of what I really knew! I believe no walk of life is immune..need for careful and reasonable thinking.
So now I’m faced with the question, “Can I be intellectually and morally virtuous, and walk away from Christianity?”
Some Virtues:
Inquisitiveness
Teachableness
Love of truth
Intellectual Honesty
Tenacity of Belief (always searching for our beliefs)
Attentiveness
Persistence
Circumspection
Retentiveness
Power to Perceive
To Introspect
To Judge
To Analyze
To Synthesize (some are better able to detect patterns and regularities, to draw disparate facts into an organized whole)
Imparting knowledge
Clarity
Creativity
Persuasiveness
Administration
Organization
Foresight
Problem Solving
I can be morally vicious, or morally virtuous; the latter requires an unselfish pursuit of truth and belief. With this in mind I will try to be morally and intellectually virtuous as possible.
Sometimes emotions motivate intellectual activity. (I’m an emotional person)
From W. Jay Wood’s book, “Unresolved doubts leave us in an ‘uneasy’ and ‘irritated’ state that moves us to resolve our uneasiness by “fixing” (settling on) some belief.”
This uneasy state spurs us on an endless pursuit of the truth. For some odd reason this fact gives me peace. I can be irritated by some of my held beliefs, that’s what spurs me and all of us to avoid believing in what is false.
Many Christians tell me I must submit to the teachings of the church. (1 Peter 5:5) This passage mentions submitting to the elders, but not necessarily believing everything they tell me. Hebrews 13:17 tells Christians to obey their elders for they watch over our souls. Imagine if Martin Luther decided to follow Hebrews 13:17 literally. Without dissent, there can be no change.
Jesus talked about abundant life…the more I’ve thought about it, the more Jesus was not talking about Heaven and Hell. I’ll conclude with some Brian McLaren quotes that are quite controversial within the Christian dialogue.
"...many Hindus are willing to consider Jesus as a legitimate manifestation of the divine... many Buddhists see Jesus as one of humanity’s most enlightened people.... A shared reappraisal of Jesus’ message could provide a unique space or common ground for urgently needed religious dialogue—and it doesn’t seem an exaggeration to say that the future of our planet may depend on such dialogue. This reappraisal of Jesus’ message may be the only project capable of saving a number of religions."
––Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 7
"I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish contexts … rather than resolving the paradox via pronouncements on the eternal destiny of people more convinced by or loyal to other religions than ours, we simply move on … To help Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, and everyone else experience life to the full in the way of Jesus (while learning it better myself), I would gladly become one of them (whoever they are), to whatever degree I can, to embrace them, to join them, to enter into their world without judgment but with saving love as mine has been entered by the Lord."
--Brian Mclaren
I responded, “Problem is, I'm battling that right now. I'm thinking of leaving a lot of what I held true behind me. This is my own issue, and personal struggle. The details of this struggle would fill a book, but the twitter version I guess would be, "Who is in control? God or me? I'd like to love the simple pleasures in life, and not be tied down to the future so much. Travel, enjoying just the moment with no destination in mind, just life in general. I've been that person, and want to be that guy.
During my trip to China in December of 2009, I read 3 chapters W. Jay Wood’s book Epistemology: Becoming Intellectually Virtuous (Contours of Christian Philosophy)
These 3 chapters when really studied did more for my clarity of thinking than any book I’ve ever read.
Jay Wood on C.S. Lewis…Hideous Strength
“…His consuming desire to be accepted by others, to feel a part of the inner ring, the power elite, eventually leads him to his relationship with his wife and—most relevant to our discussion—his ability to think straight.”
The last 6 months I’ve been battling hard questions. “What if I remain Christian just to be accepted?”
It’s hard to think straight when our paradigm is challenged.
“If I reject Christianity, will this negatively affect my relationships?”
Christians are called to the Buddhist idea of “dissolution of the self”. Our bodies, our flesh are evil; the only good comes from the spiritual. We are called to hate evil. (Amos 5:15)
“If nothing we do apart from Christ is evil; what is this ‘self?’”
These questions have plagued me in the last six months, making me depressed. How can I reconcile my serious doubts, with criticisms coming from the Christian community saying I’m “selfish” and just wanting to follow my “fleshly desires?”
The Saint Thomas Aquinas (born ca. 1225; died
7 March 1274) writes, “Happiness is secured through virtue; it is a good attained by man's own will.” “The good of the intellect is truth, and falsehood is its evil.”
But opinion and suspicion can be about both truth and falsehood. So I had to weigh my opinions with what I really know. Truth is I wasn’t sure of what I really knew! I believe no walk of life is immune..need for careful and reasonable thinking.
So now I’m faced with the question, “Can I be intellectually and morally virtuous, and walk away from Christianity?”
Some Virtues:
Inquisitiveness
Teachableness
Love of truth
Intellectual Honesty
Tenacity of Belief (always searching for our beliefs)
Attentiveness
Persistence
Circumspection
Retentiveness
Power to Perceive
To Introspect
To Judge
To Analyze
To Synthesize (some are better able to detect patterns and regularities, to draw disparate facts into an organized whole)
Imparting knowledge
Clarity
Creativity
Persuasiveness
Administration
Organization
Foresight
Problem Solving
I can be morally vicious, or morally virtuous; the latter requires an unselfish pursuit of truth and belief. With this in mind I will try to be morally and intellectually virtuous as possible.
Sometimes emotions motivate intellectual activity. (I’m an emotional person)
From W. Jay Wood’s book, “Unresolved doubts leave us in an ‘uneasy’ and ‘irritated’ state that moves us to resolve our uneasiness by “fixing” (settling on) some belief.”
This uneasy state spurs us on an endless pursuit of the truth. For some odd reason this fact gives me peace. I can be irritated by some of my held beliefs, that’s what spurs me and all of us to avoid believing in what is false.
Many Christians tell me I must submit to the teachings of the church. (1 Peter 5:5) This passage mentions submitting to the elders, but not necessarily believing everything they tell me. Hebrews 13:17 tells Christians to obey their elders for they watch over our souls. Imagine if Martin Luther decided to follow Hebrews 13:17 literally. Without dissent, there can be no change.
Jesus talked about abundant life…the more I’ve thought about it, the more Jesus was not talking about Heaven and Hell. I’ll conclude with some Brian McLaren quotes that are quite controversial within the Christian dialogue.
"...many Hindus are willing to consider Jesus as a legitimate manifestation of the divine... many Buddhists see Jesus as one of humanity’s most enlightened people.... A shared reappraisal of Jesus’ message could provide a unique space or common ground for urgently needed religious dialogue—and it doesn’t seem an exaggeration to say that the future of our planet may depend on such dialogue. This reappraisal of Jesus’ message may be the only project capable of saving a number of religions."
––Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 7
"I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish contexts … rather than resolving the paradox via pronouncements on the eternal destiny of people more convinced by or loyal to other religions than ours, we simply move on … To help Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, and everyone else experience life to the full in the way of Jesus (while learning it better myself), I would gladly become one of them (whoever they are), to whatever degree I can, to embrace them, to join them, to enter into their world without judgment but with saving love as mine has been entered by the Lord."
--Brian Mclaren
What Exactly Does it Mean to Believe?
Thanks to Nathan for this well thought out response to my question:
"I think I'm going to order this book; a Christian philosophy prof recommended this to me. I'm struggling with the question, "What do we really know?" I know some things, but some important things in Christianity, I'm questioning whether I really believe them to be intellectually honest with myself."
What exactly does it mean to believe? The word "belief" has evolved over the years. In the 14th Century with Chaucer it meant "beloved." In the 1st Century, it meant something completely different. In Life of Flavious Josephus, he writes about confronting a rebel during the Jewish / Roman War. Josephus wanted to convince this rebel to stop the futile attempts of attacking the Roman Empire and look for other ways to achieve his desired results. Josephus told the rebel to “Repent and believe in me”. In Greek that is, “metanoesein kai pistos emoi genesesthai”. This is precisely the same exact greek phrase that Jesus uses, which even the most skeptical Jesus scholars would admit.
Josephus isn't simply saying repent and believe in me as some sort of mental excercise. He's more or less saying turn away from your methods of violence and follow my way. However, as a member of the Jewish aristocracy, and a pawn of the Roman Empire, he obviously had an agenda. Jesus call to repentance was certainly more, but certainly not less. The mental exercise is needed to initiate the process, but can't be expected to remain fixed, and isn't so much the point as following the way of Jesus. Imagine if the rebel told Josephus that, yes, he believed (with our current concept of belief), but didn't follow. He surely would have been put to death by the Roman Empire. The Gospel is trans formative not affirmative.
Belief will evolve as well as your doubt. But in my opinion as well as Jewish tradition, doubt is a spiritual practice that comes from God. But the secret is to continue to doubt the doubt and never be satisfied, always be maladjusted with your conclusions. Always leave room for discussion and uncertainty.
I think that doubt keeps us from putting God into a box, making Him/Her an idol, or a Rorschach test in our image. The desert Christian mystics used to call God "Nothing" as the word "God" was/is essentially a placeholder for a name of the Ineffable Being. We have no words to define the Divine.
One thing that I've been mulling over lately is I'm quite tired of Christianity. I love Jesus, and search for God, but I see Christians pushing Christianity over Jesus, which is in my mind complete idolatry and heresy...although they would call me a heretic.
totally random, but I was reading on how to make a Halloween for Jaxin, and I took a complete rabbit trail and wound up reading about the Magi (the Three Kings...where we get our word "Magic" from). They weren't Christian or even Jewish. They were Zoroastrian astrologers. In fact the greek uses the same word to describe a sorcerer in Acts. Yet they blessed Jesus. How many churches, (even myself) would be humble enough to receive a blessing from a self described Wiccan?
Here is something that CS Lewis wrote in "Mere Christianity" which is where I'm at.
""The world does not consist of 100 percent Christians and 100 percent non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but who still call themselves by that name: some of them are clergymen."
"There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand."
"There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position. And always, of course, there are a great many people who are just confused in mind and have a lot of inconsistent beliefs all jumbled up together. Consequently, it is not much use trying to make judgments about Christians and non-Christians in the mass."
The world needs Jesus, and less of Christianity piling up mental sets of certainties. The Muslim world is realizing this. Recently at an Islamic conference, the leader was talking about how Islam is going through now (with Shia and Sunni) what Christians and Catholics went through during the 100 years war. They said the only way we will make it through this without blowing each other up is to follow the teachings of the Prophet Isa...(Jesus).
That was a long answer, but I say read the book, and let me know what you think. Never end the search, and never underestimate the strength of community in wrestling with the doubts. It's often tough to find a "safe" place to express the questions, but you always have a safe non-judgmental ear in me. I'd also be curious to hear where exactly, if you can pinpoint it, do your doubts lie?
"I think I'm going to order this book; a Christian philosophy prof recommended this to me. I'm struggling with the question, "What do we really know?" I know some things, but some important things in Christianity, I'm questioning whether I really believe them to be intellectually honest with myself."
What exactly does it mean to believe? The word "belief" has evolved over the years. In the 14th Century with Chaucer it meant "beloved." In the 1st Century, it meant something completely different. In Life of Flavious Josephus, he writes about confronting a rebel during the Jewish / Roman War. Josephus wanted to convince this rebel to stop the futile attempts of attacking the Roman Empire and look for other ways to achieve his desired results. Josephus told the rebel to “Repent and believe in me”. In Greek that is, “metanoesein kai pistos emoi genesesthai”. This is precisely the same exact greek phrase that Jesus uses, which even the most skeptical Jesus scholars would admit.
Josephus isn't simply saying repent and believe in me as some sort of mental excercise. He's more or less saying turn away from your methods of violence and follow my way. However, as a member of the Jewish aristocracy, and a pawn of the Roman Empire, he obviously had an agenda. Jesus call to repentance was certainly more, but certainly not less. The mental exercise is needed to initiate the process, but can't be expected to remain fixed, and isn't so much the point as following the way of Jesus. Imagine if the rebel told Josephus that, yes, he believed (with our current concept of belief), but didn't follow. He surely would have been put to death by the Roman Empire. The Gospel is trans formative not affirmative.
Belief will evolve as well as your doubt. But in my opinion as well as Jewish tradition, doubt is a spiritual practice that comes from God. But the secret is to continue to doubt the doubt and never be satisfied, always be maladjusted with your conclusions. Always leave room for discussion and uncertainty.
I think that doubt keeps us from putting God into a box, making Him/Her an idol, or a Rorschach test in our image. The desert Christian mystics used to call God "Nothing" as the word "God" was/is essentially a placeholder for a name of the Ineffable Being. We have no words to define the Divine.
One thing that I've been mulling over lately is I'm quite tired of Christianity. I love Jesus, and search for God, but I see Christians pushing Christianity over Jesus, which is in my mind complete idolatry and heresy...although they would call me a heretic.
totally random, but I was reading on how to make a Halloween for Jaxin, and I took a complete rabbit trail and wound up reading about the Magi (the Three Kings...where we get our word "Magic" from). They weren't Christian or even Jewish. They were Zoroastrian astrologers. In fact the greek uses the same word to describe a sorcerer in Acts. Yet they blessed Jesus. How many churches, (even myself) would be humble enough to receive a blessing from a self described Wiccan?
Here is something that CS Lewis wrote in "Mere Christianity" which is where I'm at.
""The world does not consist of 100 percent Christians and 100 percent non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but who still call themselves by that name: some of them are clergymen."
"There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand."
"There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position. And always, of course, there are a great many people who are just confused in mind and have a lot of inconsistent beliefs all jumbled up together. Consequently, it is not much use trying to make judgments about Christians and non-Christians in the mass."
The world needs Jesus, and less of Christianity piling up mental sets of certainties. The Muslim world is realizing this. Recently at an Islamic conference, the leader was talking about how Islam is going through now (with Shia and Sunni) what Christians and Catholics went through during the 100 years war. They said the only way we will make it through this without blowing each other up is to follow the teachings of the Prophet Isa...(Jesus).
That was a long answer, but I say read the book, and let me know what you think. Never end the search, and never underestimate the strength of community in wrestling with the doubts. It's often tough to find a "safe" place to express the questions, but you always have a safe non-judgmental ear in me. I'd also be curious to hear where exactly, if you can pinpoint it, do your doubts lie?
Who is in control of our destiny....
This conversation comes from a quote:
"The best day of your life is the one on which you decide your life is your own. No apologies or excuses. No one to lean on, rely on, or blame. The gift is yours - it is an amazing journey - and you alone are responsible for the quality of it. This is the day your life really begins." - Bob Moawad
I said...
"I'm trying to understand, I'm at a point where I don't know if God is in control or me. Where does God fit it in with all of this?"
Jose said...
"You are a part of God just as God is a part of you. Who do you believe has control over your destiny?"
I responded...
"I know bad things happen to really positive people, and good things happen to energy vampires. I believe in the law of attraction to a point, a lot of opportunities come my because of my energy, but I don't believe I can control God, or "the divine" even though part of the Divine is in me. I'm struggling through this concept right now."
Jose replied...
"It's not so much as to control God than to have power through God.
Have you read Conversation with God? I believe these books could help you through this, through the questions and uncertainties. It might just make sense to you or it might not."
Nathan interjected...
"that's a fun conversation. to me posing the question as "Who do you believe has control over your destiny?" is like asking in between you and your wife, who has control of your marriage? Why does it need to be controlled? God appeals to our most basic human need...to be in relation...to love and be loved. The destiny of your marriage will be shaped... Read More by the perpetual reciprocating love you show each other. I see our lives and God in similar relation shaping our destiny. No one owns or controls the destiny, but the destiny is formed by the relation.
What do you think about your question?"
Jose replied to Nathan...
"Now I am saying, the reason why I posed such a question is because most people feel that there is an outer force in control over their lives. They leave everything up to that. Basically their destiny can follow multiple options of routes. I ask such a question because I want to know if people realize how much power resides within themselves. Nothing needs to be controlled, but then people have to take responsibility for their actions and not blame, rely on anyone but themselves.
You said: 'The destiny of your marriage will be shaped by the perpetual reciprocating love you show each other.'
Who is showing that love? Me, you, God, your wife? If you and your wife are reciprocating perpetual love for one another... then you are in control of your relationship. You choose to do so.
But then I say whatever we believe to be true, is true! :D"
My response to all this...
"How can we make the erroneous claim, 'whatever we believe to be true, is true?'"
"The best day of your life is the one on which you decide your life is your own. No apologies or excuses. No one to lean on, rely on, or blame. The gift is yours - it is an amazing journey - and you alone are responsible for the quality of it. This is the day your life really begins." - Bob Moawad
I said...
"I'm trying to understand, I'm at a point where I don't know if God is in control or me. Where does God fit it in with all of this?"
Jose said...
"You are a part of God just as God is a part of you. Who do you believe has control over your destiny?"
I responded...
"I know bad things happen to really positive people, and good things happen to energy vampires. I believe in the law of attraction to a point, a lot of opportunities come my because of my energy, but I don't believe I can control God, or "the divine" even though part of the Divine is in me. I'm struggling through this concept right now."
Jose replied...
"It's not so much as to control God than to have power through God.
Have you read Conversation with God? I believe these books could help you through this, through the questions and uncertainties. It might just make sense to you or it might not."
Nathan interjected...
"that's a fun conversation. to me posing the question as "Who do you believe has control over your destiny?" is like asking in between you and your wife, who has control of your marriage? Why does it need to be controlled? God appeals to our most basic human need...to be in relation...to love and be loved. The destiny of your marriage will be shaped... Read More by the perpetual reciprocating love you show each other. I see our lives and God in similar relation shaping our destiny. No one owns or controls the destiny, but the destiny is formed by the relation.
What do you think about your question?"
Jose replied to Nathan...
"Now I am saying, the reason why I posed such a question is because most people feel that there is an outer force in control over their lives. They leave everything up to that. Basically their destiny can follow multiple options of routes. I ask such a question because I want to know if people realize how much power resides within themselves. Nothing needs to be controlled, but then people have to take responsibility for their actions and not blame, rely on anyone but themselves.
You said: 'The destiny of your marriage will be shaped by the perpetual reciprocating love you show each other.'
Who is showing that love? Me, you, God, your wife? If you and your wife are reciprocating perpetual love for one another... then you are in control of your relationship. You choose to do so.
But then I say whatever we believe to be true, is true! :D"
My response to all this...
"How can we make the erroneous claim, 'whatever we believe to be true, is true?'"
How do you know what you know?
Proverbs 18:13 "If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame."
